John Gotti’s Hitman Exposes The Dark Side of Mafia – Ty

 

There’s a lot of people out there that think they know the mob. So you’ve killed all these guys. I mean it’s not a short list of people. It’s easy for me to hurt somebody or kill somebody. That’s the easy part. Did somebody say did you kill Johnny Gebert, Bruce Cutler, Paul G, Nicky Pasquale, Kenny Nicole? Yes, I did.

I was loyal to the mob. They betrayed me. When you can’t trust somebody, you don’t say it. They shut these people up that don’t know what they’re talking about. John, you’re saying you were bigger than Gotti Sr. and Jr.? He doesn’t belong in this life. There is no honor. It’s treachery. There is no love.

It’s only about money. It’s only about an individual surviving. It happened the police just stumbled on us. They were coming in that direction of shooting. And I start hopping on my feet and I leave the car so the cops can’t go by. I get cross Atlantic Avenue. I start jumping fences in backyards and I’m taking the gun apart and dropping it in the sewers as I’m running.

Do you still miss any of it? Anybody that says they don’t miss the life is a liar. So today I have John Alite with me as a guest. John Alite was part of the Gambino family as an associate. He was working directly with John Gotti Jr. They were good friends from early on, teenagers, and he’s been known as one of the main hitman of the Gambino family, if not the main hitman.

And so today’s conversation is going to be more the mafia series. Having said that, here’s John Alite. John, thanks for coming out. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So you know, one of the questions before we get into uh uh uh everything that we got, how did you even get into having a relationship with John Gotti Jr.

? How did that connection connection take place with the two of you? Uh I grew up back in Woodhaven, Queens, Jamaica Avenue. And I grew up around the mob. So before Gotti Sr. Jr.’s father took over the mob in in our area as the boss, Andy, Fat Andy Ruggiano, was the boss, who I was close with the family, with the sons.

They played baseball with them. I used to box at the same gym. And uh he was the captain of Gambino family that ran our area. When he went to prison, uh Sr. took over and stepped in his shoes and that’s who you start reporting to is whoever takes over that position. So the introduction was made through What was it? Local community? Did you kind of meet him? Were you guys friends? At what age did you meet John Gotti Jr.

? Well, Jr. and me were became uh we knew each other when Jr. was about 16 years old. Uh I was a year older than him at 17. We were introduced through mutual friends. Said hello, goodbye. And he would come up to Jamaica Avenue once in a while seeing a guy named Johnny Gebert. Actually, he’s one of the guys I ordered his murder the first week I went to prison.

I told him to hit this guy when I go to prison. So that was his introduction uh to me and and him. And uh later on uh that ended up being I guess me and Jr. had that love hate relationship since we children. Oh, since since him 16, you 17, so right off the bat you guys had a love hate relationship. Yeah, it was uh on his end, you know, he needed us guys from Jamaica Avenue because he wanted to become He had uh aspirations to be like his father.

So he wanted to to meet some tough guys. And Jamaica Avenue is where we grew up were guys that didn’t have money. We come from a a poverty-stricken area. Where he grew up was a rich area. So for in order for him to feel that he was being uh getting his feet wet in the street, he had to come up to Jamaica Avenue and meet me and some of my friends.

So his initial friend was Johnny Gebert, who was a street guy. I mean uh So at that age 17, was John Was his father already the boss of the Gambino family? Has it did happen yet? Or Paul Paul Castellano’s event hasn’t taken place yet? Hasn’t taken place. Okay. So at this point of where you’re at, the community, are you in high school at 17 or you’ve already been out of school? No, I’m at high I’m in high school still.

And who are you in high school? If I went to school with you, who’s who who’s John Alite? Uh I was a guy that was known to be at the in the gyms boxing all the time. Most Italian Hall was the gym. Big names at that time were at the gym was David Sears and he fought Spinks. He got knocked out very quick, but he was a great fighter actually.

Burt Young from Rocky owned him and managed him. Jerry Cooney. I did some shows with Jerry Cooney on his radio show. So Jerry Cooney was in that gym, same gym as me. And Andy’s Fat Andy Ruggiano’s kids, Albert Ruggiano, great athlete and a fighter. So we all were in those gyms. Billy Streame ends up getting killed also. Good friend of mine.

So this is like the place. This is the place. This is the tough guys place where you’re growing up at. Oh, no doubt. We nicknamed our area Death Haven because most of these guys that we’re going to speak about are dead. Uh they all got killed. So you know, I’m one of the lone survivors I guess over the years. And there’s uh close to 100 guys that grow grow up with us in that neighborhood that lost their lives.

Now Now let me ask you You said close to 100 guys that grew So growing up as a kid, at what age were you forced to be tough to survive in that area? Is it right like 5 6 7? How soon does it start? My father was uh a fanatic about fighting and not getting bullied. So at an early age of 3 years old, we were actually working out doing push-ups and learning to jump rope.

3 years old? 3 years old. And we had a regiment of routines in baseball and boxing. Those were his two sports for us. So we were known and my father was known in the area as king of the kids. He would bring kids down and learn how to box with us. And so some of my childhood friends like Timmy Donahue, he’s passed away also, was also learning to fight with us.

My father brought us in and didn’t want us to grow up in a neighborhood that was tough without being able to be tough. So right off the bat you’re learning how to box. Right off the bat. Now your dad, who was your dad personality-wise? Was he a gangster? Was he connected to anybody? Was he just a respected guy? Was he a money guy? Was he a worker? Who was your pops? My dad grew up in Rivington and Delancey Street, which is a known hub, especially back when he grew up in the you know, in the ’40s and ’50s with the gangsters

like Vito Genovese were down there and guys like that, famous gangsters in those days. So if he was a hang around guy, he wasn’t a shooter, he was a gambler, but he stood with all gangsters and he was very friendly with Lucky Luciano’s cousin, Charlie Luciano, who used to call him Blackie.

So I was introduced to him as a young kid. So my father uh was uh very familiar with the the world of mob guys. Was he trying to get you to stay away from the world? Like what’s the link? Was he kind of like, “Hey, you got to go out there and figure out a way to make money at all cost?” What was the conversation like between you and your pops? No, my dad was completely opposite.

He was uh a gambler, a hustler, and didn’t want me with the mob world. But at the same time, he was bringing me around these guys. So as he’s telling me stay away, as I’m getting older, I’m getting attracted to the money and I see my my father struggling. And I see some of these guys and they treat me well.

And you know, I’m getting attracted to that life and I want I want that life. You wanted that life. I wanted that life. My father wanted me to be a pro fighter or a pro ball player, you know, a baseball player. So he had a different outlook on on things and he didn’t think In my father’s mind, I’m very close to my dad, is uh to teach me to survive, to to un- for me to understand the mob world, but to be like him. Don’t go dive into that world.

And I guess he thought that I would never dive in. I’d be like him. But it was the opposite. I went to the extreme the other way. You went to the extreme the other way. Mom and dad both Albanian? Both Albanian. Both Albanian. Okay, got it. And so he’s trying to, you know, encouraging you not to get in, but at the same time you’re on the environment, you know, gambling, you’re on And at what age are you on these folks by the way? Is it very like early early? Early. Very early.

Very early. And are they taking a liking to you? Like look, you know, we like you, you know, we like Is there a name? Hey, little Johnny. Is John Is Were you like somebody that was liked? Yeah, I was a skinny little kid, but I was muscular because I was always doing push-ups and pull-ups. And so they used to joke, “Johnny, walk on your hands.

” cuz I could stand on my hands. “Johnny, show us to do pull-ups.” And I was like a a good dog doing tricks, right? I liked the attention that they kept saying I was tough. They showed me to tell me to put their hands up, hit your hand. And then I’d hit their hands boxing a little bit. And they’d get a kick out of me.

And I got a kick out of them getting a kick out of me. So I continued with it. of entertainment. Form of acceptance. So at What was the first experience of making money illegally or legally for you? At what age? Again, I was in a in an environment that it was constant trouble. And it was constant gang related back in those days. You know, back in those days it was a lot of racial tension because of uh the times. It was the ’60s.

So I worked in a deli. And I spoke about this. It’s called Dick’s Deli. And it was a legitimate job. And in between going to box and playing baseball, I became the captain of baseball team in high school. Uh I was working in this deli, but that deli introduced me to a couple things. A lot of my friends that were involved with a gang called 7 and 9.

They were very dangerous. And it was basically it became a huge gang throughout all New York, not just our area. And it introduced me to the corner shop, the the car service. It happened to be my girlfriend’s father. And he was a gangster with the Lucchese family. And around the corner was a bookmaker, which was his brother, Louis Gotti, and George Gotti.

And he ran the local bookmaking area when car service How old are you at this time when you’re saying I get maybe 15 when I start getting involved running slips for them. Innocently. yeah, I’m working in the in Dick’s Deli and they asked me do me a favor and run it across the street. So, I innocently I’m not looking to to get involved to that extent.

They just guys told me, “Hey, bookmakers and and some tough guys and a couple killers that later on at that age I still don’t realize they’re killers. They were humble guys and uh people have the idea the loudest man in the room is the toughest and it’s the complete opposite. The guys I’ve learned to look up to were guys like uh Charlie Luciano that were humble and quiet and gentlemen.

And those are the guys when they could turn that switch on and kill. And I tried to mimic those guys as I got older. It’s funny, John Russo also said in New York he would run. He was a runner at 14, 15 years old for Frank Costello is what he was doing that for when he was doing the certain favors for. Uh so, at what point were you kind of like, “Well, you know, I’m running, I’m doing this, but I’m seeing the lifestyle.

Maybe there’s a bigger opportunity here.” Where was that opening? Was there anything that was, you know, was it accidental? Was it intentional? How did it happen? Well, I didn’t have to really After doing that, I didn’t have to get any further introduction because I’m working and I’m making $75 a week in the deli, basically working full-time for the you know, whatever minimum wage was back then.

And uh if if uh George or Louie had a a good week and their runner Zito, he was also a professional boxer. Zito is a gangster and Mousey, another guy. When they were having a good week, they tipped me 20, 50, 100. So, at the end of the week I’m getting 75 from the deli and these guys maybe on a good week are giving me 300.

And you’re talking about when I’m a kid when 300’s like 3,000. What year is this? Uh this is uh 19 uh 75, 76, 77. of money right there. of money. Yeah. For a 14, 15-year-old kid making 300 bucks a week on top of the 75. So, okay. So, now you meet Gotti. You’re 17, he’s 16. Where Where does the relation cut relationship go to, you know, come on and let’s do some more work together? How did that happen? How does that happen? Well, I’m nickel-and-diming in the drug business.

Albert Ruotolo was my you know, what you would say umbrella and he’s a couple years older than me. And if I had any issues, I would bring it to Albert. At the time his dad was still the boss. And as when his dad leaves, I’m also dabbling in the bookmaking business. And uh Gabbet has a problem with Gotti on the street with some Jamaicans.

They rob uh uh uh I think about 2 or 300 pounds at that time. Uh Gabbet was moving weed at that time, what we call weed back then. Uh and Gotti was his partner. They asked me to take a ride and be the shooter with with Gabbet. Actually, I was the driver, Gabbet was the shooter. And that was the first time they asked me to do a favor and it was really Gabbet that was asking me to favor because he lived around the corner from me and he was friends with Gotti and friends with me.

So, he said, “Will you do me a favor and take the ride?” I said, “Yeah.” And we met Gotti to discuss how we were going to do it. And that was probably the the the first major step into becoming later on involved in setting up uh multiple killing shootings and and beatings around the city. What was the first time the request was made? Like How did they know you were the guy to go to? Had you already killed people before or it had never happened before? No, I you know, most of my friends, unlike what people think because they

know my history now, they think I was a wild kid with guns and knives and bats. It was actually the complete opposite. All my friends are in 79 gang. Uh my first friend, Michael Stratton, ends up killing a kid at 16, going to prison. Another young guy, Tommy Turner, kills another guy uh that works at Dick’s Deli with us.

Uh and they try to jump him, he stabbed the guy up. Uh he went to jail. So, these guys that were growing up with me, the Bonner brothers, they’re using guns. Everybody’s using guns. My friend Mikey uh Merl gets shot in the head with a shotgun uh chasing a guy that had the gun.

So, it’ll tell you the mentality of us. He’s He’s chasing a guy that actually has the shotgun with no gun and he loses his life there. So, I was kind of innocent compared to them. I wasn’t running around with guns. I was fighting with my hands. As I’m getting uh acclimated with all my friends and all surrounding uh people that are surround around my life, I start slowly picking up knives, bats, and then I go into the guns.

So, after that shooting with Gabbet, I think that opened the door for people say, “Oh, this kid’ll do anything.” Mhm. Got it. So, what was your first experience with knives and bats? Was it still in your teens? Oh, yeah, it was in my teens. Oh, it was in your teens. Yeah. By the time I’m 17, uh I start using a bat like crazy, too.

At 17? 17. By the time I’m 19, I’ve stabbed a couple guys, batted a couple guys. I got stabbed up and batted myself at 19. I almost lost my life that year. I was in and out of hospitals for about a year. And uh now I really understood the life. And I started to understand as I’m climbing up the ladder, I’m losing my cousin, Patsy Adriano Sr.

gets killed, then Mikey Merl gets killed, and Billy Aestreme gets killed, and uh What is this doing to you? When when this is happening and you’re seeing people that are friends, family getting killed, are you getting the retaliatory Are you getting the retaliation blood in you or no, you’re just kind of seeing what’s going on, you got to protect yourself? No, I I I’m getting like you’re doing as a journalist and as as an interview person and you you develop and you become top in your field, right? You become somebody that’s going to be the

best and you’re going to do your homework and you’re going to study and you’re going to make sure that uh you don’t make mistakes and you’re going to go as as close as you can as 100% to be an expert in your business. So, I decided I’m not going to be the next victim like all my friends. They were all getting killed out of stupidity, out of trust, uh trusting So, you got to cut those odds down.

And I said to myself, “I’m going to be very aggressive and I’m going to understand I’m not 14 or 15 or 16 anymore. When someone comes after me, they know I’m dangerous now, they’re going to come to kill me.” So, who who are you trusting at that time? Do you have people that you trust 100%? Oh, yeah, I had I had a ton of guys. As I’m getting older and I’m moving in the drug business, bookmaking business, I have dozens of guys that work for me and it goes into hundreds later on as I keep getting older and I’m and I start my own crews and with the okay of the Gambino

family. So, I become a big earner on the street and I become a guy that’s well-known with different crews and and I’m trusting my guys and I’m also trusting the mob almost blindly, you know, believing that there’s loyalty and there’s honor and there’s no treachery. And I’m still naive, right? I’m a young kid that loves this life, believes in it.

And as I start seeing some things as I’m getting older and understanding there is no honor. It’s treachery. There is no love. It’s only about money. It’s only about an individual surviving. And I’m watching as I’m going through the life and getting bigger and and stronger in this life and being more successful, Mhm.

that I’m watching gangster made guy after made guy, you know, cooperating, ratting, breaking the oath, uh our laws, our rules that I live by, although I’m Albanian. But what was the first request that made by maybe, you know, John Jr.’s father that came down? Did you have a meeting with John Sr.? Did Have you had multiple meetings with them? Oh, at this point I’ve met Gotti Sr., Angelo Ruggiero.

I got to report to the club uh 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. When I’m called, I have to be there early in the morning like a job. How old were you at the time? 18 plus? Yeah, about uh 19 more so, 19. Uh it’s about the time I get stabbed up and everything. And uh I don’t come a couple times and I think Gotti Sr.

at this time thinks I’m just one of his son’s friends and I don’t need to be there. And uh I get a knock on my door and it’s my grandmother upstairs, we’re living in the same house, and she says, “Johnny, there’s a a big black car outside and there’s somebody’s out there.” So, I go out there and it’s Gotti Sr.’s brothers.

It’s Pete Gotti and Richie Gotti. At the time both guys aren’t made guys. And uh they said to me, “Where the [ __ ] are you?” And his brother he says, “What are you talking about?” He says, “My brother’s looking for you.” And I look at him funny like and then I start realizing, “Wait a second.” You know, to myself a split second and I go back upstairs and I come down and I says, “No, let’s go.

” And they said, you know, “He wants to talk to you.” That’s when I realized that I’m just not some kid to him. I’m not his son’s friend. Uh we’re not in a gang. This is not a you know, a school trip. Now I’m starting to really realize this guy’s noticing me and he’s watching what I’m doing.

And I’m still not understanding it that these orders I’m getting, collect money, go baseball bat this guy, go pick up this, is actually coming from the father. You know, I just think it’s us doing our own business on our own. Genie Gotti still alive still around at the time. He’s not locked up yet. And uh I just believe it’s that.

And then I start It It opens my eyes and said, “This guy is he’s very aware of what we’re doing. He’s very aware that we’re moving drugs.” Just says he isn’t because I’m not schooled fully yet. I’m still a kid not understanding the intricacies of the the mafia. I’m not understanding I’m not slick enough yet to understand how things operating.

You say something, but you might mean something else. You’re doing something and they’re telling you they had no knowledge of it, but they’re the ones that sent you. I start understanding all the double-dealings and the treachery in the life. Who’s teaching you? Like who is your Lefty to Donnie Brasco or your Sonny? Who’s playing that role in your life? That is kind of mentoring you say like, “Here’s what it is. Here’s what omerta is.

Here’s the code of this. Here’s this.” Who is Who is doing that with you? Well, there was a guy Ronnie Martino who was a a known killer back in Dick’s Deli and uh Gambino family? No, outside of the Gambino family. He had a brother-in-law that was involved with the Gambino family, but he was involved with the Lucchese family.

And I had a lot of Lucchese. He had a brother Gambino and he’s Lucchese. Not a brother, a brother-in-law. A brother-in-law, got it. And you know, it’s not what everybody thinks. It’s not, you know, most there’s five families in New York, there’s the outfit in Chicago, there’s the Philadelphia mob, there’s the Cavalcante family in North Jersey.

We all mingle intermingle with each other. We do business with each other. We’re friends with each other, but we also kill each other on orders. So it it’s it’s not as simple and cut and dry that people There’s a lot of people out there that think they know the mob and they think they understand it and there’s people that are so naive and there’s people that think they’re experts in this world and this life.

There’s guys like Sammy Gravano who’s a friend of mine and other guys that there are ex-skippers and bosses and underbosses that we’re all in touch with and we lived that life. And even us, we have daily problems understanding the life and the treachery. And as we all got out of the life and moved on with our lives or our friends died or got killed.

You know, there’s people that challenge us and these days you know, you could challenge anybody through a computer. Well, they talk and they just talk such nonsense cuz they have no idea or clue of the treachery that involves when you get to the level that we were playing at. And so so at So what’s the next place? So now they’re coming the brothers are coming, you’re in the car, you’re like I got to go.

These guys He knows what’s going on. The orders are coming from the top. You go in. So now there’s almost a level of accountability from his end and the son is a friend, but it’s not You’re not yet reporting to anybody or are you? Well, now I start reporting. It’s about close to Paul Castellano getting killed. So it’s the end of ’84 about prior to Paul getting killed.

I start reporting and having conversations more with Sammy Gotti. Prior to that, I was involved with uh Genie Gotti, Johnny Caniglia. Anybody that was around Willie Boy Johnson was on the half sheet with him and Gotti senior sent me to him. So I understood that Gotti was my partner, the father. And we had the New York Mets gambling with me.

So So when I I moved to a different level. We used to play at We used to hang out a place called Channel 80 and it was a known spot for all the gangsters. You’d pull up with a boat. We all had cigarette boats in those days. I had a 280 Baja with Gotti junior. And we’d pull up to those places and Roger Basileo owned it.

He was around Jimmy Burke from Goodfellas. His son Frankie was a good friend of mine. He gets killed also. And uh I start understanding that uh we’re all living a pretty dangerous life now. Any moment, anybody could get killed. Didn’t matter who it was, where it was. In your house, in a business. And it’s not like these days where guys aren’t shooting.

When we were growing up, ’70s, ’80s, ’90s there was killing was rampant, shootings were rampant and battings were rampant. So when I’m doing business and I’m talking to Willie Boy Johnson, I understand where it’s coming from now. And Gotti had his conversations with me. So I and the senior had his conversations with me. So I understand the orders are coming from.

Did you know were you involved in in the Castellano before it happened with Sammy and and and the team? Was there anything that you know about or that wasn’t at your level yet? No, it was at my level. It was but it was through his son. Junior loved to talk to me and brag to me. So privately Junior told me I knew I’m involved with Angelo Ruggiero. So I was close with them.

I’m close with Johnny Carneglia. At this time, I gave a beating to Patty Catalano’s kid Jeff who was in the heroin business. Genie Gotti and Johnny Carneglia asked me to hurt him. I gave a beating to a guy Frankie. You know, these beatings are serious beatings, not with your hands. Bat. Bats, blackjacks.

A guy Frankie that strayed away from Johnny Carneglia. And they asked me to hurt him. Another guy Mitch Sanders, they asked me to hurt him over some sort of rape with his girlfriend’s sister. They accused him. They go ask him They asked the Gambino family to do the work. Johnny comes to me. So I start understanding.

I hurt Jean Forrester on the beach and I start hurting guys and batting guys and piping guys. And it’s coming from At that time, I didn’t really understand it was coming from Gotti senior until until he didn’t like that I didn’t jump on a situation fast enough and he called me in his office. And he said, “Did my son tell you to do something?” And then the next conversation I had was, “If it’s not done, you’re going to have a problem.

” So I took care of business. Senior told you this. Yeah. And then I went through that on a regular basis. No, these are beatings still. Oh, you still haven’t You still haven’t I’m doing shootings, but I I haven’t killed anybody besides the Gebbet and he was actual shooter. So I don’t know how many guys died on that shooting.

But you know, we hit I believe three guys and maybe a girl actually was there. So you know, you don’t stand back there and count how many guys are going down. You know they’re going down. They’re screaming and he’s shooting like crazy. So that’s your first one? Yeah, that was my first shot. I was young. I was 19 years old.

What happened when that happened to you? Were were you like, “I cannot believe I just did this. What What the hell just happened?” Or were you I was mad because I talk about this. Gotti and a kid Jerry were following us in a cake car, junior, and they were supposed to be our blockers. And they took off and made a left when the police were chasing us.

Happened the police just stumbled on us. They were coming in the direction of the shooting. It wasn’t We weren’t far from the precincts from 102nd Precinct. So there’s a lot of police cars there. I mean, for them to be coming down the block at that time, you got some bad luck. So after we do the shooting, I would think, you know, I wasn’t sure how I would react either, like you’re saying. Naturally, you’re not sure.

Are you going to hold your mud or are you going to panic or you going to It became very natural to me. It was very easy. I pulled away. The cops were chasing us. Gebbet left the gun in my car and he jumped out while it was moving. I was going slow down a a one-way street, not slow, but I was coming up to the stop sign and he jumped out.

He said, “Let me out.” As he jumped out, he left the gun and the cops started chasing me and my my follow car my backup car was supposed to be Gotti and his kid Jerry and they had an excuse why they jumped out. So really I’m the only guy holding the mud and I was heading down towards Atlantic Avenue.

It was a one I know the streets there cuz we live there. And I know it’s a one-way. I open up the passenger door. I open up the other door. I take the gun and I start huffing on my feet and I leave the cars so the cops can’t go by. I get across Atlantic Avenue. I start jumping fences in backyards and I’m taking the gun apart and dropping it in sewers as I’m running.

And I get myself back to our club on 113th Street. And I’m steaming and I says, “Now I want Gebbet.” This is the first time I’m saying, “Okay, I’m going to get Gebbet.” So Gebbet came to the shooting high. He was smoking dust. And he’s a wild guy. You know, no doubt I know Gebbet since he’s a kid. He’s a shooter. He shot a lot of guys, but he’s a you know, he’s a guy that’s smoking angel dust.

So I I look at him in a different light now. You’re weak. You can’t do work without doing that. You left me and I’m looking at Gotti and I’m thinking That’s all I’m thinking. And why I stick around is because I have a bigger plan for myself because everybody asked me that question, “Why do you stick around?” I says, “Because Junior wasn’t my direction.

His father was the direction I was trying to go.” And Angelo Ruggiero at the time is moving heroin with Genie Gotti, Johnny Carneglia. They all get pinched, Walk Right In. And uh I’m very friendly with them and I’m moving some I I start moving packages, not in that level, in small levels, but I’m moving it through Rikers Island through another guy that’s at Rikers Island uh a guy Chrissy, Pete Chrissy. He’s dead.

He died also, but his brothers are still around. There His brothers work for me. Actually, one of his brothers, Tommy Chrissy shot Gebbet up before we killed him on while we was on a kill and when we see him. Which he lived, but uh I’m in a different circle and I understand what what I’m involved with now with Angelo, with Johnny and the shooting start, the drug business starts.

So I understand and I know where I want to go. I got the New York Mets gambling with me. And actually somebody questioned that. I don’t remember who and they came out with a check from Keith Hernandez of $5,000 to show they were paying. They found the $5,000 check from Keith Hernandez. in the papers. It was in the New York papers. So that’s documented.

It’s documented. Got it. You know, a lot of this stuff I’m I’m speaking about there’s a new book I’m I’m coming out with, Dark Dark Shadow, too. And uh I’m going to come back this time you know, cuz I’m going to talk about shooting after shooting, stabbing after stabbing. But this time I told my author I want the witnesses and their names besides the victims in that book and I’m going to do a scorecard inside.

So I’m going to show it step by step for the people that don’t understand the life. So at that moment when that event happened with Gotti junior is your level of trust in him at a good score and then after that it’s a scar where you kind of keep in the back of your mind saying I can never trust this guy? Like What Where are you with him? Because there are certain things where you see somebody do something in the back of your mind like, “Okay, it’s done.

I can never trust this guy, but I have to act like I do.” Is that kind of what happened between the two of you? 100% because people ask you this you know, during the trials. They would There’s a lot of questions from lawyers and journalists and you know, and I said to them, “Listen, I tell everybody the same thing.

You had other positions before this. As a kid, you’re growing up and there’s bosses you don’t respect, you don’t trust and you keep it there in the back of your head. It’s just a lesson learned that you know that you can’t trust them. You know that he’s not He doesn’t belong in this life. As the years are moving on and not even years, as the months and weeks are going on I just named probably half a dozen of our friends that are already dead.

By the time the next year comes around, I can name another six, seven guys that are are dead. So, Peers. Peers, good friends. And some of these friends of of mine are guys later on that I killed or I have killed. You know, I had like Johnny Gebert, I had him killed. At one time he was my friend as a kid.

He lived around the corner from me. But you’re starting to understand the life and you start to understand the treachery and you’re understanding, just like at war, that this is you’re you’re not at playing a game no more. You’re not in the schoolyard. You’re not going to punch a guy in the face and it’s going to end.

So, you start really understanding when you can’t trust somebody, you don’t say it. You don’t talk. Only the guys that talk end up dead. So, you know, I always use the armed force. I got a lot of respect for these guys and I’ve talked about it on a regular basis, armed forces, because these guys every day uh put on a uniform, whether they see action, no action, they have the possibility to lose their life.

So, when people sit in their comfortable homes and they don’t salute our flag or they don’t get up and respect on people in armed forces around the world, not just this country, I says I despise them. They’re cowards. And I have strong feelings against them because these men, they lost their mothers, fathers, kids, children and we have no right and no matter what.

And I lived a a rough life on the street. And no matter what this country has done to me as far as prisons, I will never disrespect the flag or or the people that fight for our country. So, it’s very important. And I think that the message of somebody’s uh people leave out in the street about something they don’t understand is uh it’s important to get the right message out there.

John, at that moment when you’re when you’re seeing what happened with uh uh uh you and Gotti Jr., uh was there a moment where the next time you saw him where he couldn’t look at you in your eyes? Was there anything like that where the tension was felt or no, you acted like everything was okay? Like even a smile like you just made right now, that smile tells 50 stories, right? So, you know what I’m saying when you see somebody and there’s a smirk or smile or squint or angle of looking at him, is there any of that felt between the two of you or nothing at all? Yeah,

I asked him what happened. He gave me an answer. I knew it was [ __ ] And I didn’t question him anymore. I just put it in the bank and said, “Okay, I know what he’s made of now.” So, I understood at that moment that he’ll sell me out any second, anytime. And later on he does. So, so, so then this leads me to the next question.

Now, you’re saying in that moment you’re you have bigger ambitions on what you want to do, right? You’re saying I want to have bigger ambitions. But you’re Albanian, right? It’s there’s you can’t be a made man in the Gambino family and be Albanian. You got to be Italian, right? I mean, that’s one of the things that they had themselves, especially to go be a boss.

To be the boss it’s a complete different story. So, as much as you’re motivated and ambitious to do it, what was your formula on how to get to the top? No, I understood technically I couldn’t be officially made, technically. But otherwise in every other aspect of that street world, I’m considered being made guy.

I’m considered being almost a boss on the street. I’m considered by anybody in the mob because you know what runs runs the world of the mafia is violence, violence and money. So, if you can I had the qualities that other guys did. I was intelligent, so I know how to make money. I knew how to operate businesses and I was vicious.

So, those qualities make me become another Jimmy Burke, who was uh Robert De Niro in Goodfellas. No, of course. Yeah. His son was my good friend. So, I looked at Jimmy Burke, I don’t see I don’t think there was anybody ever when he was in jail, on the streets, whatever, say, “Oh, you’re Irish, we’re not respecting you as a gangster or as a mob guy.

” Well, Joe Watts, who was a very personal friend and a and a known killer in our family and John Gotti Sr.’s main guy and he was German. So, there’s guys that I looked at and said, “I’m going to be them.” And uh I did become them. Guys testified in in trials in court that I had my own crew and it was very unusual for an Albanian, a non-Italian to be able to run their own crews on the street and nobody’s challenged.

But there’s guys and there’s groups outside of, you know, you see some of these mob sites and the guys, they don’t even know what they’re speaking about. There’s There was, you know, the Westies, an Irish group out of New York, Manhattan. I would laugh if somebody ever typed something to them back in the ’80s that they’re they’re not respected because they’re Irish.

And even we’ll talk about these days, the last four hits in in the American Italian mafia were done by black guys. So, I want to see those same guys telling them, “Well, we’re not going to respect them.” People in the street, and this is anybody in the street, whether you’re the Hells Angels, my friend was he just passed away, was grew up with me since we were kids, was president of Hells Angels.

I don’t want to see I don’t think there’s anybody from the street that is really a legitimate tough guy that doesn’t understand the street. We under understand to respect somebody with intelligence and somebody that is on the street that’s that’s tough. So, regardless, no one says to you, “Well, what’s your nationality? I’m going to respect you for your nationality.

” No, no doubt about it. But but there’s a there like, you know, Mira, you you you know, Tony Mira, uh uh you know, there were certain guys that were known for being earners, there were certain guys for being known for being soldiers, right? There were guys that knew how to go make the money and some of them that knew how to take the hits.

One of the things Sammy was known for, the guy, the reason why he got so much street credit is and this is this comes from everybody I talk to. Whoever I talk to for whatever reason, they all either respect Sammy and validate what he did and even the whole story with him and Gotti, him going and testifying, immunity, whatever you want to call it for the 19 counts, they say he ran a legitimate construction company, was making money and at the same time when it came down to doing the job, he did it as well.

So, but because he was Italian, he could eventually end up being a boss. What was your, you know, end of, you know, my vision is one day John Alite’s going to be XYZ. What was your vision? I’ll I’ll tell you something cuz you mentioned Sammy. Sammy Gravano, and this is the first time I’ll mention it anyway.

Sammy Gravano did an interview, his first one since he’s been home from his 15 years he just did. And his interview was about John Alite. He does a audio interview with a guy named Andy Delian, who did Perfect Gangster one. Uh that interview is going to be in Europe shortly. And he discusses what I am. And what’s a thug, what’s a mafioso, what’s a gangster.

And he says most people, this is his words, are uh either like a Michael Franzese, who’s a mafia mafioso earner, but not a killer. He doesn’t put a gun in his hand. He’s very intelligent man. I like him. I respect him. He’s speaks well. He turned his life around. He’s doing the right thing.

And then there’s guys like Frank Cullotta, who’s a thug, gangster, killer. So, there’s two types. Mhm. Sammy gave me in that interview or he said about me that I’m both. I’m an earner, I’m a thug. And I’m a mafioso and I’m an Albanian mafioso that has total respect from the mob world. And that uh I’m a professional hitman and I’m a killer and I’m the Gambino’s family’s hitman.

And And unfortunately, I was around the wrong guys, the Gottis. Those are his words, not mine. Those Those are recorded words from Sammy. How How many total people have you done a How many hits did you do total? I hear different numbers. I hear 15, dozens, 19. Here’s the thing. You know, you go play baseball and I’ve tried to say this is, you know, so many different times when I’m talking to you.

You will play baseball and a guy plays one game and he gets a base hit. He’s going to remember that for the rest of his life. It’s the only game he played. I did this day in and day out. So, when someone said, “Did you kill Georgie Grasso?” I’ll give you names. “Did you shoot him in the head?” Yes, I did. Did somebody say, “Did you kill Johnny Gebert?” Yes, I did. I ordered him dead.

Did you kill Bruce Cutler? Unfortunately, I’m friends with his family now. Yes, I did. I ordered him dead. Did you shoot Mike Lavigne in the chest in Port Authority testified against you 25 years? Yes, I did. Did you shoot Ricky Stratton in the head on the Belt Parkway? John Alite, did you shoot him? Yes, I did.

Did you shoot Paul G in front of John Gotti Sr.’s house in your in care was in front of his house? Yes, I did. Did you shoot Nicky Pasquale five times on his porch and he lose his leg and he almost died? Yes, I did. Did you stab a guy in front of Vinnie Butch in Fort Lauderdale in the neck and the stomach and he was operated twice and almost died? Yes, I did.

Did you shoot Sal Nodles’ brother-in-law in uh Bulkhead Bar? Yes, I did. I shot his friend outside the Bulkhead Bar. Yes, I did. I can go on with these names. And if you I Did I shoot two guys in front of Mondello’s for Michael Catapano, we call Catman, still alive? Yes, I did. Witnesses. Did I baseball bat three bikers and baseball bat Nicky uh uh Kenny Nicole on 78th Street in front of the old brother-in-law by accident? Yes, I did. He’s alive.

Joey Matthews is dead. I went to protect him. Did I pipe three guys and hit them with bottles in front of Princeton Diner in front of Lisa Matriano? Her best friend’s married to Joe Pungitore, a captain in the Philadelphia mob. She was there. Still alive. Yes, I did. Did I stab a biker in Forest Hills and let die and tell my shoot him in the head they never come looking for me again after I baseball bat the other three bikers? Yes, I did.

Michael Finney testified against it for it. Uh about what I did. Did I shoot Mike Pip and two other guys in front of 116th and 101st Avenue? Yes, I did. So, the difference between what I do and I can go on. We could keep talking. I don’t know how many guys I shot. I killed two guys for sure on my property, maybe three. Uh Danny Mauro unlike some of the stories that said it never happened, testified and he’s on tape.

It’ll be out in Perfect Gangster 2. Dino Fanelli helped me get rid of the guns afterwards, seen tons of blood all over. These are regular guys. Dumped the guns for me. Testified also and did an interview on tape. Carmine Rone multi-millionaire, legitimate guy owns the Marios restaurant testified I did. He was on the property. Steve Laquertondo, insurance man, regular guy testified I did.

So, you know, when guys are talking out of line or out of school, I hear it all the time. So, why is Sammy Gravano, the underboss of family, talking about me in that in that way? Why did Ronnie One Arm, captain in the Gambino family, I robbed all his bookmakers, he was a one-time friend of mine.

I robbed Jojo Corozzo, at one time consigliere of the family, robbed his bookmakers. Why ain’t anybody getting retaliation against me? I robbed two of them. I put my name in his mouth and I taped it. Uh Steve Catalano was there, he’s still alive. Johnny Burke’s in jail, even though I don’t like the kid, he was there.

He didn’t want to come near the guy cuz the guy was too big. So, these guys are alive, I can go on. Why did Ronnie One Arm, in his own words, in his opening statement say if I ain’t nice to the Johnny Alite, he’ll kill me like he killed everybody else? Why did he say it a dozen times? Get his paperwork in his opening statement.

It’s out all over the internet that I’m John Gotti Jr.’s partner, I’m in the drug business, over and over and over again he repeated it. Why did Stevie Noel, a guy I shot, who I’m personally friends with now, and we had a disagreement, the guy he said they would protect him, I shot him. Did he say on tape you don’t know Johnny Alite, he’ll shoot anybody anywhere.

And did And John Gotti Jr. ratted on him, ratted on me. Well, he became a rat, he called Stevie a rat. Wasn’t true. Why did Stevie Noel say that he sees captains in the Gambino family answer to me? He grew up in our neighborhood. So, when guys talk and I hear these tough guys on the internet and you got guys like Vito Guzzo, who’s doing 30-something years.

He’s been my enemy for years. Did I have him shot? Yes. Did he kill the guy I had him shot? Yes, he did. Do I like him? No, not particularly. Do I know him since he’s 5 6 years old? Yes. Does he have the right to talk about me? He does cuz he was a legitimate gangster, whether I like it or not. And he knows I’m a legitimate gangster.

They tried to kill me 7 8 10 times, I don’t know how many times. These guys were on the FBI’s most wanted, Anthony Tabita, Frankie Foridello. These are serious guys, killers. But when you get guys like Big Mouth, there’s a kid from my neighbor, Frankie JeDece, who’s a punk with a big mouth, never did anything, and they talk like they ever did anything.

He never loaded a gun. He’s another guy. Only guys that talk like that, you know they’re in about nothing. But when at least if they’re in the mix and you know, when his friend was getting hurt or we were collecting money off him, he ran, he hid in front of 106 Precinct. These same guys that talk where they talk about my children my children ain’t gangsters.

You got children, too. So, when they talk out of school they’re you know they’re not about anything because guys that run their mouth, they’re nothing. The guys that Frito Guzzo, who was a legitimate killer I didn’t particularly like their crimes. I didn’t like what a lot of those guys in that crew did.

Some of them didn’t like it, either, with any Vito was doing. But you can say to yourself, this guy is a gangster, he can’t talk. There’s a guy out of Brooklyn that’s in the street still, I know him since we were kids. I won’t say his whole name, his name Danny. He was a killer, tough guy. So, he has the legitimate right to talk about the street.

But these guys that don’t know what they’re talking about because I can run those lists on and on and on of guys I shot baseball batted. I said I baseball batted over 100 guys and stabbed. Did I do it? Well people say I did. There’s a guy, Johnny, that testified for John Gotti Jr. I baseball batted him by myself. The three guys I just talked about, by myself.

The Kryzanowski brothers, I baseball batted, too, by myself. The Keegan brothers I baseball batted one of them by myself. I could go on. That’s why I said I may I’m going to say names this time to shut these people up that don’t know what they’re talking about or what disrespect me because my life’s different now. The hard part for me is not to kill these guys that talk.

The easy part for me was killing guys and hurting guys. Why was it easy? That’s part of my life. It’s like putting on a uniform and going to the army. Whether I it’s a crazy way of thinking. When I signed up for this life, I believed in it. I don’t believe in it anymore. There’s two things that ruined this life that people don’t understand.

Structure right? And fear. There is no more fear because they’re they’re asking people outside of the mob to do that killing for them, to do that [ __ ] shooting for them. Wait, structure and fear is what made it work or structure and fear is what it’s it’s what made it it work. Why it doesn’t work now is because I can name and I can see how I just named all the guys I shot and stabbed and I could have kept going, right? You you could see I could keep rambling these names.

That same guy, the same the way I did that, I can name family after family. Joe Massino, acting boss boss, excuse me, of the Bonanno family became a rat. John Gotti Jr. became a rat. Al D’Arco, Lucchese family, a rat. Philadelphia mob, Ralph Natale, rat. Leonetti, rat. But how you going to have structure when all your bosses are rats? Not only the bosses, I can go down the line of captains.

I can go to Mikey Scars, became a cooperator. I won’t call him a rat, he cooperated. He was John Gotti Jr.’s best friend. He made statements, I was there when we were setting up juries for Gotti senior. Why is he making that statement if I’m a nobody? If I’m not this guy everybody says. Why is he saying that Johnny Alite we he was there when we were going to hit uh Curtis Sliwa night denied it.

I I said I’m not hitting a journalist. We got enough guys we can hit and kill. So, why am I at weddings? Why am at Gotti’s wedding? Why am at sister’s? So, when people talk out of line that they don’t have a clue what they’re talking, they have no idea the violence that we were living and what I personally did for the Gambino family, in jails, out of jails. John, let me ask you.

I’m listening to the way you say it. You’re saying it a way a baseball player would say you know, game three playoffs round, you know such and such I hit the double and it scored a winning run, you know. Uh game one opener against the Yankees, I hit a, you know, home run and we ended up winning that one three for four.

The way you’re saying it is just so nonchalant. Is that a part of it where in your world there is it almost sounds that it’s like uh uh uh I don’t want to say bragging rights, but it’s like, listen, I’m a real soldier. Here’s what I really did. Because you lived in that I feel the competitive spirit that you have. I feel the the the spirit of look, I’m legit, here’s what I did.

I was a driven guy, I was committed to the life and I wanted to come through and I’m not one of these guys that didn’t that were afraid to be soldiers. I did this part as well. That’s that’s the that’s the way it comes across. Are these things where for you during that part of the world you look at and you say I chose to live this life and I’m proud of the job I did.

Is that kind of how you’re processing it or no? My father, let me go back to my father. My father taught me to be best at whatever I did. So, when I played baseball you have to beat me for me to back away from a guy coming to home plate when I was a little kid and a catcher. There’s no way I’m going to step away and side tag him.

When I was in the ring whether win or lose, they put me in a ring one time with a kid that was destroying me and my trainer wasn’t there and it was, you know, just sparring. Mhm. And I would I refuse not to go in the ring. And he beat me all over the ring. And then when I got involved with the mob I believe Here’s the thing that why I’m so adamant the way I talk and what I say and is because I believed in the mob more than anybody.

I went against my family. I went on the run because I didn’t want to give up anybody in the mob. I left all my money, millions. I left my children. I stayed in a Brazilian penitentiary and I was going to rot there. I was willing to face the death sentence. I lived in every country you could think of. Meanwhile my enemies and my friends like Gotti Jr.

were already cooperating. So, what I’m trying to do and it’s so important for me to say, I am the real deal. I am the guy that did this. It’s not bragging. And you know, maybe sometimes it comes off that way cuz I’m angry because I go around now. I don’t know if you know what I changed.

Because I go around and I teach kids don’t follow. That’s why I’m angry. Because I don’t want kids to follow this life. I don’t want kids to understand and think that these guys are tough guys because in my book that I’m going to do with Susan Pike I’m going to come out with the next book. This is Darkest Hour 1. I’m coming out with Darkest Hour 2 and 3.

And in Darkest Hour 2 that’s coming out in February, I’m going to put a scorecard like we do in sports. When somebody gets Just what you said, how many hits or how many tackles. I’m going to go through how many of these guys never touched a gun in their life. Never did a killing. Pete Gotti, say. Never touched a gun.

He didn’t kill anybody. It’s easy for to ask this kid to do the killing from. It was easy to ask me to do the killing and the shooting and then when it’s finished and all the trouble starts, say he was nobody. Because they’re going to do it to the next kid. That’s why I’m so Who was saying you were nobody? Whoever says it.

I’m saying it doesn’t matter who’s saying What I’m trying to teach these kids is don’t follow this life. I’m here to tell you I lived this life. I was a guy that was in this life making a ton of money. This is a dead end way to live. So, it’s very important to be very strong about the way I’m talking and what I’ve done.

And it’s very important to let these kids know, listen, do not follow this. This is a one-way street to nowhere. And and It’s very tough to live that life today, though. You know, to to to have the mob life today, it’s very tough to live the life today. It’s not not as it was in the ’80s.

No, it’s not as the ’80s because they’re not killing and they’re not shooting and they’re not baseball batting Well, this is why I was talking about structure and fear. Right. But you have guys all over the street selling powder and pills, and they think they’re gangsters. They put on a suit and tie, they put on a cigar they put a cigar in their mouth, and they think they’re gangsters, and they’re teaching these kids they could still do this and you can have a future, but there is no future in this life.

There is no future in selling drugs, there’s no future in selling killing or hurting. It’s This is why I said it’s very easy to kill and hurt, but it’s the hard part is not to. John, what’s your falling out? What caused the fall I’ve read many different things, and I’ve read both sides of the story, you know, and I called around just to kind of see what they’re going to tell me.

People that don’t believe a single word that comes out of your mouth. People that say this guy’s legit, and I’ve called names that you know. Some of the names you’ve mentioned just to kind of give that, but they’ve asked me to not disclose the names for obvious reasons. So, if I were to call you and say, “Hey, what do you think about this?” This is what I’m sitting with you is what’s the case with this guy.

What what caused the falling out with you, John, and senior? What what caused the falling out while you’re coming up? Well, it’s very simple. I mean, anybody with an education can decipher what I’m saying and check, right? Because I’m making statements with names. I’m making statements of made guys. Okay.

Here’s the falling out. Frankie DeCicco was killed. Did you see anybody get killed after Frankie got blown up? No. Eddie Lino was killed by the Lucchese family, by the rogue cops, Epilato. See anybody retaliate that? No. Bobby Boriello was killed in front of his house. See anybody retaliate that? No.

Joey Scopo that was put in position to be an acting boss of the Colombo family by Gotti when he was murdered in front of his house. Any retaliation? No. My good friend Greg Rider was chopped up and left somewhere. Nobody ever found his body. While his father did life, didn’t give up. Gotti senior couldn’t never spent one day Mark Rider in prison, and nobody did anything about it. And in my belief, they ordered it.

They okayed it. They didn’t order the murder of Greg Rider, but they okayed it. And I could go on with that list. Little Anthony Maccuspie was killed over a a dispute in in uh I’m trying to think of Bedrock’s with the owner. Did anybody kill the guy that killed him? Regardless if the guy was wrong or right.

Our laws, you can’t put your hand on a made guy. He killed him. Gotti didn’t do anything about it. Nobody did anything about it. Why not? So, we believe in nothing. We believe in money. And these kids think that there’s loyalty. I just named every boss that’s ratting. I just named Sammy Gravano. Let’s put it at somebody in his shoes. He was quiet.

He never got caught on tapes. He didn’t brag. He didn’t talk about murders that we committed in the past that it’s it’s our law if you do bring it up, you’re killed for it. He didn’t go against his boss. He was a big money maker. He was a family man. He didn’t run around like a lot of us did with women. He was a perfect gangster.

That guy was a perfect gangster, and he was quiet. Now, he’s known to be a rat, right? That’s what the the journalists around the world projected him as. That’s what the gangsters did. But, who’s really the rat? This guy did everything from Gotti gave him up every which way. And he didn’t get a chance to kill Gotti.

Maybe if he got a chance to, he would have never spoke, but instead he was in handcuffs going to go do 10 life sentences because of Gotti’s big mouth, because he betrayed Sammy Gravano. Sammy didn’t betray anybody. Wait wait, did you just say if Sammy had the chance to kill Gotti, he would have? Of course. He would have. 100%. Do you think Sammy was a threat to Gotti because the street saw Sammy more as the power guy than Gotti because Sammy was getting all the contacts and the relay like he could eventually be a boss or not at all? No, because Sammy didn’t have an ego. He

had no aspirations to take over. He didn’t care to John wanted to be a front. No, Sammy had no ego. Was that known? Yeah, it was known because Sammy didn’t have the ego. Sammy stood back. Sammy only cared about making money, staying with his family. time did you spend with Sammy? Over the years, I was He was always around like I was around.

I you know, you’re watching you buddies? Were you friends with him? buddies with him at all. I was loyal to the Gottis. So, for me to say this, I was a Gotti loyalist. I wasn’t a Sammy Gravano loyalist. But, you know, if you’re going to speak about the mob and honestly in history, history needs to be correct, right? It can’t be somebody that’s in love with the the romance of the Gotti story.

I mean, you said something about the Gottis, which is which is quite interesting. You said anything that preserves Gotti junior’s image is glorifying the mob. If you’re glorifying the mob, you’re killing kids, you’re teaching kids to respect the coward. You’re you’re calling John Gotti junior and senior a coward.

Is that is that what you’re saying? Like they were cowards? Listen, I’m calling all of them cowards, the Gottis. I’m calling Genie Gotti a coward. He was in jail with me. He was my cellmate. I slapped him around in jail. I didn’t slap him around just to talk. Here, Teddy Persico was there, Carmine Persico’s brother. Mikey Spinelli, a known killer, was there.

Patty DeLaRosa, all made guys. They’re all there. Let somebody ask them, “Did I do it? Did I have Louis Andino from GQ we used to call him, Rob Genie Gotti? Did I have James Perry slap him and throw a chair at him? Did I have Mark Giuliani do it? Did we beat up and hurt Ali Calabrese in jail?” You see him in the Irishman, they talk about he’s a gangster’s gangster.

Nobody did nothing about it. Why not? These guys were all there with me. Everybody knows the story. So, when people say when they talk when they don’t have knowledge of what they’re speaking about, but I’m speaking from facts. And I ask people look it up. Pete Gotti never used a gun. Never. John Gotti senior never killed anybody with his own hand.

John Gotti senior never killed anybody. Never with his own hand. It’s easy to ask somebody else to do it. Here, I’ll give you a gun, so you kill him. Zero. He’s never killed anybody. How would you know that though? I know everything about him. Where’s He’s dead. Where’s everybody that have it? that’s the part somebody may say he doesn’t have You’re going after a guy that’s dead. He can’t defend himself.

son can. Right? He’s dead. Let him come out. This FBI alive Let There’s so many rats out there. Joe Massino is a rat, knows him his whole life. Right? Why isn’t he talking about Al D’Arco? Why isn’t he talking about There’s a million guys out there that hung around. All the guys that cooperated around the Gambino family, nobody put a gun in Gotti’s hand ever.

I was friendly with Willie Boy Johnson before he cooperated, while he was cooperating. We all were. And when he spouted off or Angelo Ruggiero spouted off, they all said the same thing. But, I’m not I’m talking about facts because you have FBI information. You have guys that ratted. You have guys that stayed with them. You have You you have Carmine Agnello.

Never used a gun. His brother-in-law. He ran to Cleveland, he had a 16-count indictment. They closed the courtroom. What did he do to get out of it? He got guns in his house. I mean, these are facts. These aren’t you know, so when kids are looking up at these guys, I’m telling them, “Don’t you open your eyes cuz I never opened my eyes until now.

And now that I have a voice, I can save kids’ lives.” But but why why is the story being told otherwise? Why why is uh Why is the story being told? Because isn’t one of the criteria of being a made man, you have to kill somebody? Isn’t that one of the criteria or it’s not? all. can be a made man and a boss, and you’ve never killed anybody. Correct.

Okay, the second thing. Isn’t one of the codes of being a mobster, you can never talk to a government official, FBI You can never do that. I did that. do that. What is Gotti junior sitting with the FBI making 302s when I’m sitting in Brazil penitentiary? And he could give me 20 life sentences. So, tell me who betrayed who.

I’m in the jail. I’m in a dungeon. I’m getting beat up. saying he didn’t say anything, and nobody got arrested afterwards. That’s what he says that nothing happened. That’s what I’m I’m repeating what he said. You know you know it yourself. Okay. You find me one gangster because he could tell that to the public cuz they don’t know any better.

We know our laws. He sat with them. He gave information against us. He was an informant just like Willie Boy Johnson. And we all copped pleas. Joe Watts had to cop to a murder. Danny Marino had to cop to a murder because of John’s testimony, and he refused to get on the stand against him. He only wanted to feed information.

That’s the truth of it. He was locked up for the Silver Fox. He stabbed the kid from behind his children. It’s an open murder. He can never get locked up for it. Why not? Kevin Bonner testified against all of us. Great witness. His girlfriend, great witness. They were all there. There was How many testimonies if they said they seen him stab him, and he admitted and to me, too, he admitted he did it.

He stabbed him, and he killed him. So, why isn’t he getting arrested for that murder? What Ask law enforcement. Get an explanation, but I have his 302s. We put it in the book. Documents of what he was saying. People he was giving up. Politicians he was giving up. Other guys he was giving up. He gave up his friends.

He put other friends in a murder investigation that’s still open that can is never closed. And he put them all at that location. So, for him to say to the media First of he did say he did rat, actually, on video. Said he ratted. Then he said he only ratted a little. Then he said he only ratted against his enemies.

And then he went back and said, “I was just trying to trick the FBI.” It it’s it’s It’s not even a conversation to have. He ratted. It’s stupid. He sat with the government. He made a deal. He backed up on the deal five different times. But, that’s really not the the issue is not what he just did at that time of ratting.

The issue is one after another these guys aren’t using guns. One after another these guys’ bosses, and not just the Gottis, bosses around each family are ratting. And they’re trying to take guys like me to do the killing, to do the shooting, to do the beating, and say he’s nobody. And then use those kids to get life sentences for them.

And these guys walk away, and they they make deals on the side like Gotti did. John, how many years did you do? How many how much time did you do? I I I went away the Somebody put in there 6 years for this, 3 years for this. Not true. I went away for 3 and 1/2 years for a gun. I went away in Brazil for 2 and 1/2 years. I came home.

I did 10 years here for this case. I went in and out of jail for an assault in ’90 ’91. I went back in 2001. I went out again in 2002, back in jail. So, when these guys talk How much total time? Total time about 18 years in and out. How come it’s 18 years if you’ve killed so many people? Why are you not doing life? Because I’m the first guy to say, when Gotti ratted they came when I came back to the United States and whatever happened with when Brazil extradited you? extradited me back and I got the paperwork of Gotti ratting. When I was

in Brazil, they flew to me. They showed it to you? They showed the the uh the consulate the excuse me, the consulate of the family, Joseph Corrao his son, Joe Corrao, was a lawyer defending Ronnie Trucchio at the trial in Tampa. I was absentee. Ronnie Wanum’s opening statement was giving Junior up because Junior was rat.

He gave me up on a drug end because I gave permission to give me up. But I didn’t give him permission to give me up on murders. And he started giving me up on murders. But that information the whole family knows he’s a rat. He’s been shelved, he’s been chased. Did people want to kill him? Of course they wanted to kill him.

Will they kill him? Who know They don’t know what information he gave. Will they kill who? Junior? Junior. Because people ask, why is he alive? Today? Today, always. He he he’s always going to have some Who’s going to kill him today? Well, you listen, it’s like Persico died, Cali died. I mean, it’s it’s calmed down. not a killer, but and unfortunately, he died cuz I really thought he was a he was a decent guy.

That’s what a lot of people tell me. They say he’s a really decent guy. I think I I think the whole Gambino faction to turn it around and he Well, I I I speak openly, honestly. The Gambino faction are gentlemen. They’re quiet. They don’t bother nobody. What they do for a living, I can’t judge them.

All I’m judging is when guys are telling guys put a pistol in your hair and and tell a kid to kill, I’m telling the kids don’t go into life. I’m not telling an adult don’t stay in that life. I’m not. How are you alive? So, you’ve killed all these guys. I mean, it’s not a short list of people. If you’ve hit a baseball bat 100 people, you know, if you do something to my family and I’m in that world, I don’t know how long, you know, so how come nobody has retaliated to you? If you have this many numbers of hits, how come you’re still around? You’re probably figure. You live in a

New York. It’s not like you’re living in Montana. Listen, because I’m not Pete Gotti. People know I’m vicious. And if you come after me and you don’t kill me, they know that I’m going to probably do something. I understand, but that’s a that’s a pretty quick fix though, right? If somebody says, “So, just make sure he doesn’t live.

” Well, so why are you alive? Well, who’s going to kill me? Pete Gotti? No, he’s I mean, if he was out. He’s in jail. No. Who? Jackie Nose? He never used a gun, either. Who? Mikey Scars? No, he never used a gun. Carmine Nello? He never used a gun. Right. You got to go find somebody who used a gun in the first this to try to create an event.

I’m asking this question to But if I was worried about that, honestly, I wouldn’t live in New York. You wouldn’t live in New York. I think I I give you a lot of credit for that because and not that others who go and live in another place, it’s, you know, it’s to to each his own, but you decide to stay in a place like that.

You know, one of one of the things I was thinking about when I was looking at this, I got a couple other questions we’ll go through here. But one of the things I was thinking about when I was looking at this is sometimes um the the the the person to be the most careful with and I and I want to preface it in a way and you can come back and answer it in any way you want.

I I just want to I just want to hear your thoughts on this. Sometimes um say there’s a kid who, you know, he’s got a brother and the brother’s born in America and he’s not born in America, but this kid’s more driven to be a president and this family, the father is pressuring them to be a president one day and this brother knows no matter what he does, he can’t ever become a president even though he wants to become a president more than he wants to become a president, but he can’t because he was born here, this guy wasn’t. It’s a law. You can’t do nothing

about it, right? Okay. And sometimes this guy on this side who maybe have more qualities to be a president that his father wants him to be. They want to make father proud, right? Yeah, I want to be the guy that become comes through and leaves a legacy for your last name, Pops. You came here from another country.

I’m going to do my part, Germany, whatever you want to talk about it. In the book 48 Laws of Power, I don’t know if you read the book 48 Laws of Power, Robert Greene. Law number one, never outshine the master, right? Do you think there was a little bit of that spirit felt about you or no? That wasn’t at all because did they kind of get a feeling of tension to say this guy’s a little too ambitious? You know, and was that kind of your frustration to say you know, if I can’t go out there and, you know, get all the way to the top, screw it.

I’m going to go out there and throw everybody under the bus. How much of it was that? And again, if you completely disagree, I’d love to hear your views on this. here’s the thing. You know what I’m saying with this part, right? You got to understand, in any aspect of life, envious people and jealous people are dangerous people, right? So, when they see that I was successful, they see I was making money, they see I was dangerous, they see that I had a big crew of people.

More than Gotti’s? Gotti’s didn’t have it. John Gotti Jr., if you can find me a killer that was around him besides Bobby Boriello because Bobby was killed, but he Bobby wasn’t a kid that could go on the street and baseball John, you’re saying you were bigger than Gotti Sr. and Jr.? No. No, no, I’m not saying that. You Senior had a ton of guys.

Junior didn’t have guys. Junior had not a shooter around him. But are you making more money than Senior? No, no, of course Okay. So, so what I’m what I the question I’m asking is was there a level of envy from you towards them? No, not at Listen. Senior All I used The only The respect level is this. As you getting older, you’re intelligent unless you’re a a dummy and you just follow blindly.

But you start seeing. I was betrayed by them. So, yeah, there is I was loyal to the mob. They betrayed me. There’s no way you can turn around the fact that John Gotti Jr. met with the government in 2000 and three or four and then he signed papers a year later, 2005. He can’t change that. That’s a fact.

That’s when he was in and that’s when I was in the penitentiaries in Brazil. You can’t correlate He can’t try He can try till he’s dead. You can’t correlate whatever I did for what you did. You did this five years earlier. So, I don’t know how he’s even trying to correlate whatever he did, his actions. The rest of the mob knows he’s a rat.

Okay. Now, did I come in after that? Yes. Did Ronnie Wanum cooperate? No. But did he give a statement said he was afraid I’d kill him like everybody else? Of course he did. What kind of statement is that? So, that’s okay? Or the guy that comes in and he’s not the only guy. Mikey Scars cooperated, captain.

And I’ll go I just said I went through a list. I can go through more. Sure. So, why am I loyal to a life of Italians when I’m Albanian and they’re not loyal to their own life? So, this is and they’re giving me up at the same time. And all my guys are giving me up and other guys who Who am I being loyal to? Because they’re not being loyal to themselves.

So, what do I owe them? They owe me nothing when I left my family. They owed me nothing when I stood in those penitentiaries and I wouldn’t rat on my enemies. I wouldn’t rat on anybody. I left everything to to to be true to that life that I believed in. But one after another, made guy after a made guy are giving me up and giving information against other made guys and bosses.

I’m not just talking about just underlings or made guys. I’m talking about who’s Who’s going to deny the fact that these guys are ratting like crazy? Was it public when you retired in ’99 or no? Like, did you tell them I’m retired cuz you’ve said you retired in ’99. ’99. ’90 In ’99 did you retire or In ’99 I got out of jail, 2000. Right.

In 2000, I don’t know if I said I’d retired or didn’t retire. I was still in the mob. You were still in the mob. Yeah. So, in 2001 when you was there a recording you heard with you and your uncle where they said, you know, he’s he’s not a made man, he’s a skipper, or something like that? Is there is there something with that recording you heard with your uncle or no? There was a recording.

You’re talking about Stevie Knowles incident. Yes. And I there there was a meeting with John Gotti Jr., Stevie Knowles uh John Gotti Jr., excuse me, stayed across the street with sending messages back and forth to Carmine Agnello. Pete Gotti was involved. They’re talking about hitting me. I shot Stevie Knowles.

The guy they’re supposed to be protecting and they asked Stevie Knowles, “Can you kill Johnny Alite?” It’s it’s a joke. You’re asking the guy I just shot that you’re supposed to be protecting to kill me. Why don’t you kill me? You just said you’re going to protect this guy and I told you go [ __ ] yourself and I shot him.

How did you hear about that they wanted to put a hit on you? about that. I said that to them because the FBI came to my house and said there was a death threat on you and we have to report it. So, instead, they said, “Are you going to tell them?” And this was in about ’94. But they said, “Are you going to tell the guys?” I said, “Yeah, I am.

” And I went and I and I switched the story to them and I said I heard a recording, “You guys were going to kill me.” So, at that same story, I says, “Well, I just robbed Joe Cain that you’re supposed to be protecting and I stabbed him a second time. He’s did nothing. I took Richie Gotti Sr.’s brother’s son-in-law.

I beat him to death on the street. He lived because the guy the skipper from Bonanno family saved his life, the same guy that’s bringing him to me, set him up for me, brought him to the hospital, Ronnie G. Lorenzo. They did nothing. I shot my cousin that was Gotti said, “Don’t pay the cop for payoff fee.” He did nothing.

I robbed two book bookmakers around him. They did nothing. I beat his uncle up in jail. They did nothing. I beat up Ali Calabrese in prison with other guys and these were they did nothing. They don’t do nothing, but then they went ratted on me. So, you had your chance to kill me over and over again.

How many things can I do to these? I says, “But when they change that story, so when when Charles came to me and we can go on story after story. And if you’re so loyal to Gotti right? Why is he robbing Papavero Funeral Home with me? Charles Carneglia. Why are you robbing it with me? In 2000 and whatever year we did it, one, two, three, something like that.

We robbed the funeral home of John Gotti’s main guy. He was buried there. He had his funeral there. I didn’t give a [ __ ] He was alive. Actually, we robbed it in ’94, excuse me. Gotti just went to jail. So, if I’m this guy that don’t care about anything, then why is a made guy running around with me robbing things? If he doesn’t answer to me.

If he doesn’t respect me, if he’s that they don’t think I’m nothing. Why you robbing? Why you have no respect for the guy he’s doing that with me? Why you helping me giving me guns to shoot my cousin that’s around Ross from the Genovese family and and he’s running a bread union with him. Why why you coming giving me a machine gun and a 9 mm to kill John Gotti Jr.

, Pete Gotti and Carmine Agnello? And if that’s not true, get the guys that testified against me. One of them was my cousin and knows about it. And well, uh Cubo Cubanelli has I put the guns in his safe. He’s a tattoo guy in the neighborhood. He’s still around. If it ain’t true, well, Andrew D’Onofrio that wrote a book about it said Nicky Corozzo told him, yeah.

That but he didn’t mention it. He didn’t know it was me that was going to do it. And I wouldn’t give the guns back. So, why why are they so afraid of me if I’m this junkie nobody? Right? So, this is the the the point is I went ran through these guys and they never did anything. And my message is still the same. That’s the past.

I’m a different guy now. If I wasn’t, I would be retaliating against guys when they talk so much the way I used to. Now, I send the message. My life has changed. I’m the same guy. I mean, don’t get me wrong. If somebody tries to hurt me, I’m going to protect myself. But, my message to the kids day and night is going to be the kids to stay away from this life.

When did you cooperate? Was it ’05 when you cooperated? No, I cooperated when I came back about ’07. ’07 is when you cooperated? It was uh ’07, yeah. It was uh ’07 towards ’08. Articles say 2005. You were in ’07 was it ’07? Brazil Penitentiary. Okay. Guys cooperated 2004 and ’05. Four 2004 and ’05, yeah. like three or four late years later and I sign officially about five years later.

What what’s the story with when you went to court to testify this one one of the jury members Paul Peragine Peragine however you want to pronounce I want to hear your views from this. Almost the entire jury didn’t believe the star witness yourself. He wasn’t credible at all. What what is this all about? It’s written about in different places.

Well, first of all, this guy’s you know, we use terminologies in mob hump. So, he’s a mob Paulie’s Yeah, why would you go out to dinner with Gotti after the trial? Why did you go socialize with him for? That’s first off. Second, I can’t control what other witnesses stay on say on the stand.

You know, if somebody says something different that didn’t even hang around us like Peter Zaccaro. He’s you know, he’s a big mouth. He worked with me. He stayed with me. He was going to set up the murder of of of Pete Gotti, Junior Gotti and Carmine Agnello. But his brother was his dad his brother’s a tough guy. These guys used to come visit me in prison or whatever.

So, when he says something at that on the stand, I can’t control what he says. I he never came to our clubs. Actually, Johnny King sent me to hurt him too when he first came home. And what’s his name? Provate was there. Dave Provate owns a junkyard by Shea Stadium the old Shea Stadium. He was there when I went for him.

So, when these guys are talking, I can’t change but here’s one of the reasons why this jury didn’t believe me. Because there’s guys witness after witness saying I’m too dangerous on all the trials. Get the paperwork that this guy can’t control me. Partially, they all right. He can’t control me on everything but I do work for the Gambino family.

So, the their view is I’m lying because no one’s controlling me because Joe King got on the stand saying one thing. Uh Johnny another kid gets on the stand saying Gotti never did anything. A-alike’s crazy. He baseball batted me. Stevie Knowles getting on the stand saying Johnny A-alike chopped me. Ronnie One I’m saying I’m scared Johnny A-alike’s going to kill me.

I’m a captain in Gambino family. So, what is the jury going to say? They say this guy’s a maniac out of control. Since I came home, the Gotti family uh this is a fact. The Gotti family wrote my parole the whole family wrote I don’t know how many letters to my parole wrote to my parole’s boss wrote to my judge 2013 ’14. Yeah.

Gotti had his right to write them and say I’m a killer and I’m going to kill somebody in the Gotti family. They need to lock me up. You’re going to kill somebody in the Gotti family? And I’m going to kill the brother or somebody in their family. They need to lock me up. I violated my parole. Every gangster around the streets active and not active still in touch with me.

I’m in the drug business. I’m still in the construction business and I’m a nobody but everybody from every crew is getting in touch with me. So, what are these letters? And Gotti himself and his lawyers wrote a letter into the judge saying that he feared for his life. And his sister wrote a letter in 1992 he doesn’t have the stomach for the mob world.

So, but my thing with the Gottis is it’s not about the Gottis. It’s about the Gambino family. The thing about correlating John Gotti Jr. becoming a rat in 2004 2005 has completely nothing to do with me while I’m in the Penitentiary in Brazil. I’m just curious how they keep trying to correlate him ratting and me coming in after the fact for three four five years later.

The correlation doesn’t even make a little sense. Who’s behind the website? Who’s behind the website? John Gotti Jr. How certain are you of that? 100% The guy Chris Carparosa said he works for John Gotti Jr. The guy who runs the website says he works for John Gotti Jr. This is very similar to what the Scientology Church does. I’m sorry. I don’t mean to cut you off.

Go on my Google and read my Wikipedia. He controls it. He locked it. He changed the the the writing of what was on Wikipedia. Who did? John Gotti Jr. Chris Carparosa. You can’t even rewrite on it if you want. When’s the last time you were in contact with John Gotti Jr.? I was in Long Island at a diner when I first came home. ’13? Uh ’13.

I had a meeting there with a couple guys and six police cars came and they informed me that Gotti called up and said that he had fear that I was going to kill him that he lives around the corner somewhere. I don’t know if that’s true or not. him or no? No, I didn’t see him. And then the letters started coming into my parole that I left my area and I’ve been in different areas in New York and I did not allowed to leave New Jersey Philadelphia area.

So, the the thing that’s is is mind-boggling to me is the way he won’t let this go. I even gave up social media years ago because I’m not going to play these kid games with him forever, you know? So, but the the answer is still back to the same thing. How you correlating if you became a rat anything to do with me? Would you like to face off with him? Not not fight face off and have a conversation with him.

Would you want to sit down I’ll sit here tomorrow with you. We get him on the air and we’re going to talk him about and we’ll start with his father so we don’t have to talk about him. We’ll talk about his father. I want to know what when did he ever use a gun? I want to know when a gun was in his hand besides that in fantasy story he told in his book that his father left Green Haven or one of the prisons and his two marshals with him.

They went to a dentist office. He went out the back door. So, he had about 30 people that were witnesses that he was brought to a dentist so he went out the door and he did a murder. That’s the best he could come to a murder for his father. It’s the kids got to know. The kids got to know. Was his father Now, let me straighten some out.

Was his father a gangster? 100%. Was he from the street? 100%. Did he have a lot of guys killed? 100%. Was he a big earner? No. Was he a degenerate gambler? Yes. Was he a tough guy? Yeah, he was a street guy. He was a tough Was he a killer with his own hand? No. Did he have killers around him? Yes. He had a ton of killers around him.

Bobby Boriello was one of them. Johnny Carneglia was one of them. Eddie Lino was one of them. Joe Watts was a big one. Sammy? Sammy without a doubt. These are guys that most feared out of all of those guys? Uh Sammy and Joe Watts without a doubt. Without a doubt? Without a doubt. Johnny’s was tough for him too but without a doubt.

At the peak when you were on Sammy, what was the different energy you felt from Sammy than you felt about the senior? Senior even as a kid senior wanted to intimidate you. Right? So, I grew up in the street. He wanted to fear you you know, and as a kid I wasn’t intimidated. I would be a liar to say I was. Sure. You know, I wasn’t intimidated.

I wasn’t impressed by him. But then as you’re growing and you you understand the world is like going to kindergarten you you work your way up to college. When I looked at Sammy, you seen complete confidence. He walked with confidence. He didn’t try to stare you down. He said hello. He didn’t try to intimidate you. Hey kid.

And even to today if you ask him when he met me, he doesn’t know. And of course he doesn’t know I He said hello but he doesn’t specifically remember conversations cuz I’m a nobody. I’m a kid growing up and he’s and you know, he’s on the boss. So, why would he pay attention to just like guys that say they know me and I don’t remember them because I’m in a different level.

You’re not going to remember these guys but he was always a gentleman. And as time went on, yes, he seen me more and he said hello more. But if you ask him specifically what did we talk about, he won’t remember but I remember because to me it was a big deal just like it was a big deal talking to Gotti senior. But then you learn and you decipher, hey, is this guy a good leader? When you start watching people that are good leaders through history whether it’s in law enforcement like we talk about Rudy Giuliani, right? Highly intelligent guy,

good leader. He he decimated the the mafia but he made a statement. I did an interview down in Albania about the five families and the interviewer was very famous guy down there in the Balkans Blendy said that Gotti senior had a gun on him and I left. I says, you’re wrong. And he says, well, that’s what Rudy Giuliani did.

I says, all due respect to Rudy Giuliani and I have a lot of respect for him. Is he wasn’t in the car but Sammy Gravano was. And there was no gun in Gotti’s lap or hand or jacket. He had no intention of getting out of that car no matter what. He was just going to send Sammy out. Sammy had the gun. So, it depends on where this information’s coming from.

Phil Baroni, right? And I’m going to slide back for a second was one of the guys who was an ex-detective that testified in Gotti’s trials and he and this is the reason maybe I have problems with some of these juries. And he said he didn’t know when we were going to kill Georgie Grasso. This is the detective that lived up the block from me.

This is the detective that when I moved to Cherry Hill, New Jersey, 2 hours away, he moved next door to me. This is the detective that went to Mexico with me. He’s my bookmaking partner with me. He’s selling drugs with me. He’s doing arm robberies with me. But he didn’t know I was going to shoot this guy in the head. Who the [ __ ] going to believe that? Who’s stupid enough to believe that? So if a jury thinks because he’s saying he didn’t know and Peter Secaira, the other guy is saying I he met me in the McDonald’s somewhere and I said I don’t even know

where this McDonald’s. We met in Burger King for a different occasion. Whatever stories these guys are telling, the only difference between my stories and them and is mine’s a truth and I don’t say I didn’t kill these guys. I don’t say I didn’t shoot these guys. I don’t say I’m involved in baseball batting these guys.

But when these guys want to insult somebody and say you’re only on vacation with me, Phil Baroni couldn’t get any further up my ass. You’re a detective that ran around with that badge with me and we did everything together for 20 something years. You were giving us information when Genie Gotti and Johnny Carneglia had a problem.

You giving information that John Gotti Sr. and Sammy were going to get pinched when they got pinched in ’90. Where was that information come from? It was come from Phil Baroni. Where did he get it from? So when these guys are talking on Morgenthau’s driver the district attorney’s driver, Jimmy. I’m in his house.

Why am I able to describe your whole house if you’re not involved with me? What the [ __ ] was I doing in your house? These are you know, did his lawyers do a good job? Yeah, his lawyers did a good job. He had a lawyer, John Marigliano, was a fantastic attorney. Every time he walked in I said, “Oh, this guy again.” Not because you’re lying, because you know they’re going to pick you apart.

They’re intelligent. So when you’re on a stand and we can’t have these conversations. Of course they’re going to pick you apart. They’re They’re going and they’re getting paperwork. And I’ll give you an example. I had tons of paperwork from Brazil extradition and I was fighting my case. Marco, this guy, I sent him 750,000, he stole it.

He denied it. A buddy of mine put all the documents with the money transfers to Brazil and they showed he stole the money. Gotti was friends with him. Gotti had him do a video. But Gotti doesn’t tell everybody this guy, when I was locked up facing life in a death sentence, took all my paperwork and sent it back to the United States government to give me a life sentence on Gotti’s behalf.

So when I’m on the stand, they said they got all my papers. Did you say this? Yes. Is this part true? No. Is that part true? No. Is that part true? No, I’m lying. Because back then I wasn’t cooperating. So I says that’s when I was a gangster. This is how I was going to beat my cases. Yeah, I did order a murder from Brazil.

Where you going to kill this guy from Brazil? This is all in the sweep. But I’m trying to say, yeah, you could take that paperwork, some of it’s real, some of it’s fake. I’m trying to save my life. Now I’m on the stand testifying against the guy who I called Whitey Bulger. You gave me up. Would you think it was I a fool? I was going to say I’m going to go to jail and do 10 life sentences for a guy that had my best friend from college, Timmy Donovan, testify against me cuz you said to? So he did and he testified for you?

When you have the Accardi brothers, the the famous Trafficante family, John and Jason and the father testified against me because Gotti said they could? Or you have Robert Lamedolla testify against me because Gotti said he could? Or Joe Cain give fake information on the stand cuz he said so? Or Johnny, the car thief that I baseball batted cuz John Gotti said so? I could go through some more names that he told everybody to testify against me.

They couldn’t kill me, so this was the way they were going to kill me. He was ratting on me. So when I came back and I got all the paperwork and I found out everybody’s testifying against and giving me up then yes, I did come in and I never hid the fact. I’m not like everybody else. I said you they betrayed me.

I didn’t betray anybody. So when I came in, it was years after John was in. It was years after Mikey Scars was in. It was years in captain. It was years in if a fat Dom was giving giving people up. It was made guy. These are all Gotti’s guys. They’re all talking. I’m not talking. I left my family. I left my money. I went penniless.

I lived in Cuba. I lived in Colombia. I lived in Africa not to rat. So when these guys switching this, dates can’t lie. Paperwork can’t lie. The only difference is I’ve always been a man. I stand on my two feet. So when I came in, I come in and I don’t hide the fact. You betrayed me. I owe you nothing. It’s interesting listening to these stories.

You know, for me, um I I I’ve interviewed a few CIA agents. One of the one we interviewed, she was the chief disguise officer of the US government. So she would disguise faces and she went to Bush one time. She disguised the face Bush couldn’t recognize and she took the mask off saying how great of a disguise this was. She married another CIA agent because they met each other in the business.

I said, “Let me ask you a question.” How do you How do you believe each other? She says, “Uh it’s a very good question.” I said, “Because both of you are trained to lie for good reason, right? Because you lie to protect your country. So if you sit down with a Russian operative, you’re not going to tell every story.

You’re going to lie as much as you can, right? So So how does one when when sitting and you hear all these stories um somebody who’s not in the world, you just listen to the stories. You hear so many different sides and everybody sounds convincing. Well, you have to take, like I just said, you have to take Ronnie One-Arm’s opening statement.

Why did he say that? Why did he say he fears I’m going to kill him? You’re a captain. Why would the guy I shoot say he’s seen guys from the Gambino family, skip his answers to me? Why would you have the underboss of the Gambino family say he was our hitman for the Gambino family, specifically for the Gottis. He was their strong arm.

Why would you have Mikey Scars, his skipper John Gotti Jr.’s best friend, right hand man, say I’m there during these conversations. Why would I be in Gotti’s wedding? Why am I on a list giving him 5,000 at the Helmsley Palace when there’s only a handful of gangsters around the world there? Why am I in sister’s wedding? I mean, this is very simple. It’s not my word.

Why am I saying he’s a rat? I have the paperwork. Why come in years later after they already [ __ ] me? So this is not This is step It’s not my my word. This is step by step. When I was on the stand, I couldn’t show pictures of Phil Baroni cuz they were in my house. The detective that claimed all this nonsense.

So explain to me Is it What do you think the odds are? A billion to one? 5 billion to one that this detective’s selling drugs with me, robbing with me, bookmaking with me, moves next door to me in Cherry Hill? All the real estate in the world, you came to Cherry Hill to sit next to me? What are you doing at my house every day? How many pictures you want cuz after this week I can give you pictures.

What is Carmine Agnello, right? Never shot a gun in his life. 16 count indictment disappears in the courtroom closes. Do we have to be geniuses to understand what he did? So you know, I’m not asking anybody to believe what I’m saying. Just look at the facts. Why are these guys talking like this? Yeah. Who Who do you trust today? Do you Do you Are you easy to trust people today or after a life like this? I mean, you’re you’re 57 years old.

How do you trust anybody today? You know, do you see people and you say I think you’re 56 to be exact. September 30th is your birthday. So who do you trust yourself today? Listen, you know You’ve lived a Like you said, treacherous life. So who do you trust? Very simple. Guys like you, legitimate guys that have no agendas, that are respectful.

Purely agenda. And Got it. friends like my friends, these friends of mine that I grew up since I was a kid, that are attorneys, court stenographers, was 5 years old and my friend. My friend Michael Jacobs, I know him since he’s 5 years old. These guys have no agendas but friendship. They’re not weasels with money.

They’re not calling somebody trying to set me up from behind my back. They’re not guys that are dying to make their name themselves off me. And you got guys that I’ll call up and I’ll give you an example. A guy calls me out of nowhere, fake number, and he tells me he’s part of a crew. Albanians. I don’t talk against Albanians. I try not to kill Albanians.

I hurt Albanians in my life. And he claims he’s involved in a crew of Albanians that went to jail. And he said some choice words for me. So I told him “You know why? I says I’m going to give you 15 seconds. This is what I’m going to do for you.” I says, “First, if you are who you are, I know you’re a dog.” I says, “Because while your friends are all in prison, what are you doing home?” I says, “Second, if they had no evidence against you, when all your friends got went to prison because they challenged the Gambino family why didn’t you go

kill anybody for them?” I says, “So you You’re talking like a killer, but you’re not a killer cuz you’re not in jail with them. You didn’t get revenge with them. And any of those guys on that case, as much as I don’t want to disrespect them, they didn’t kill anybody.” So when do these guys get off talking or even questioning me on my life when they have no knowledge of it? So I have no business questioning your life or disrespecting you in any which way unless I was involved with you or unless I told you I used the name earlier of

Vito Guzzo because like him or leave him or like or disagree with his crew of crimes and they tried to kill me and in reports all the guys that cooperated said they tried to kill me 10 times. So they have the right to talk about me because we were in throwing back and forth trying to kill each other, shooting each other, robbing each other.

So they do have the right. Even if I disagree. I personally give them respect either way. If I like them or disagree, but I respect them. There’s a difference. Like in sports, like anything. But when guys are talking out of school that don’t even understand this life and they get on a chat and they want to feel important with especially when guys reach out to me and talk.

They’re only talking because this is a night this isn’t 1985 or 86 or 87 or 90 or 95. We all know that. Okay. So, the biggest mistake anybody ever made in life is when they challenge and threaten somebody because that’s usually when you you talk to a serious guy that uh you can have an issue. Now, with me, I don’t take them serious cuz if they were if there there’s enemies out there there’s a lot of guys out there that don’t like me.

All right? A lot of guys out there want to kill me, but they’re not on the internet talking about it. Those are the guys I got to worry about, not these idiots that get in touch with trying to get attention. So, you got a guy like Johnny Burke, I’m going to use him. He’s got a life sentence. This is a guy that was around the Rugiano family.

He was a drug addict. Got baseball batted by Carmine and John Gotti Jr. Did nothing about it. This is a guy that let his family sit in the street with no money. Didn’t buy him a house. I had to give him 60,000 to buy a house. This is a guy that left Citrus County jail twice to go meet with the prosecutors.

He didn’t go to Disney World and try to make a deal. This is a guy whose mother threatened us in 2001 if we didn’t give him money he was going to rat. This is a guy that got run over by Brendan Gabbett and did nothing about it. Sat in the hospital and they came running to me, “Can you help me?” This is a guy that was with me at the robbery in Valley Stream when I robbed Jojo Corozzo and Ronnie One-Arm’s bookmaker that refused to come. He was scared.

This is a guy whose brother married a police officer but calls everybody a rat. This is a guy who they did the whole house of an FBI agent for free. Him and his brother were meeting with him, but he calls everybody a rat. This is a guy who teaches his kids to talk just like him and this is the problem why I keep doing these shows for kids because don’t follow these guys.

They’re full of [ __ ] They ain’t about nothing. And this is a guy that Matty I won’t say his last name shot him in the throat because he talked too much, Johnny Burke. This is a guy in jail that was getting shaken down. And in Citrus County when he came to the jail I was at, I got him in the solitary port and I told him I know you’re a rat and he cried.

This is the same guy that’s talking on internets and and cuz they can Google they can use the internet now from prison. This is a guy that if I told him to do anything I wanted he would have did it and said please can I do it again? So, when they’re able to talk on internets and computers because it’s a different world, but no one’s talking about this and his family doesn’t know all this stuff, but his mother knows that’s you and I made guys that are cooperating, Patsy Andriano, Dave D’Apino, Peter Zuccaro, and made every one of

them before all these cases come go pay his mother before he snitches and he rats on us. And this is a guy in 1994 got out of trouble for a state case and I got out of jail that we were questioning how he got out. And I can go on, you know, with more stories about him. So, when these guys talk, the problem is their mouth’s not you know, they’re not sewed shut.

You can’t stop them from talking. So, they want to change the storyline what happened. This is the first guy that rolled out all these guys. All right? So, when his sister or somebody’s talking, I don’t even blame them cuz they’re hearing it from him. Or when Gotti’s kids are talking cuz I tell my kids shut your mouth and mind your business about my life.

You’re just a regular kids. If any gangster wants to be a gangster still with me, I’m very accessible. I don’t leave New York. So, if you’re still thinking you’re that killer, then you’re allowed to take a shot. Jump. Like we used to stay in the street, right? You froggy, take a jump. Leap. So, what are you talking about kids for? I don’t want to talk about anybody’s kids.

So, you know, I make this very easy for anybody that still says they’re a gangster. It’s just what you said. It’s over. But if they wanted to be a gangster, go ahead. You know where you’re going to end up. You’re going to end up in the life. If that’s you trying to get a name off yourself for talking about me or somebody else.

today. Like you said, fear and structure was the key and those two things when you lose those two things it’s tough to uh tough to control. So, you know, the whole part you said something you said I’m trying to change my life, but you also don’t believe certain things change about a person, right? Like you commented something about change.

You’ve lived this life for a while. How do you I know you said something you had a hard time going to sleep at night. You’re still having to see a therapist sometimes talking to some people, you know, to kind of be able to flush it out. It’s not like you only did it for a year or 2 years 3 years.

You you lived this life for some time. How are you keeping up to stay changed? Because I was diagnosed with PTSD. I don’t hide that fact because I try to help soldiers and other people that have been diagnosed with it. I don’t hide the fact that I see a therapist. I don’t hide the fact I’m like an alcoholic. I said it over and over again.

It’s easy for me to hurt somebody or kill somebody. That’s the easy part. For me it’s easy. I don’t say anything different. The hard part is not doing it when they talk crazy and talk stupidness. So, you have to work at things, right? So, I get through it day each day. So, today I get through today. I worry about tomorrow tomorrow, but I’m not going to change who I am.

So, who I am is this. I don’t need to call 10 guys. And the reason why I said when I baseball batted this guy and I say who’s there, I’m by myself. When I shot these guys, I’m by myself. I because I want people to understand. I don’t need 20 guys to feel strong. And I didn’t need 100 guys to say I’m cooperating now because they betrayed me.

I just ran through this. The mob betrayed me. I didn’t betray them. So, don’t try to switch that on me. I’m not one of these dumb guys. I was educated, college educated, street educated. College educated? Yeah, I went to college also. So, I I didn’t graduate the 4 years, but I went to college 3 years. So, I’m educated and I understand life, right? And I understand if John Gotti Jr.

ever turned around and and learned to be a gentleman, shook my hand and said, “Let’s forget about the past.” Cuz there’s a ton of guys out there that tried to kill me that I’m friends with now. The guy Stevie Noel that he planned on killing me and I shot him, we’re friends. Because there’s a level of respect. Again, I’m going to go back to level of respect.

But when you want to [ __ ] the public and yourself and throw your garbage on me and you’re not man enough to say, “This is what I did.” I’ll never be your friend. I’ll never respect you. So, when you turn around and you be a gentleman and say, “Okay, this is what happened. I couldn’t take the life anymore. Yeah, I did cooperate.

I’m good with it. I don’t care. I’m not going to hold nothing against you cuz I moved on. There’s guys that robbed my money, big big money. Like that kid in Marco, 750,000. I don’t go looking to kill him. He’s not in the streets. Do you still miss any of it? Anybody that says they don’t miss the life at my opinion that’s been in the life that we were is a liar.

I think we all miss the life, but the only difference is we get older, we get smarter, we understand there is no loyalty. And I think you miss like we all say, camaraderie and all that. And I joke about it. I said, “Well, join a bowling team.” So, if you miss the camaraderie, but I know that this life of what I thought it was as a young man as a kid does not exist.

So, you know, my friends that I when I am together with my friends that the guys I grew up with and we go to the beach or we go as families, I don’t miss the mob when I’m with them because again, now you’re with real friends and you don’t got to look over your shoulder. And I don’t got to worry about getting in the car and I don’t got to worry about anything with them.

And you know, there’s no treachery. There’s only true friendship and love for each other and our families. And this is the part that kids really got to understand because I know I was there. I know that’s it’s enticing. Right? And all this is enticing. But just what you said, I’ll be a liar to tell you, you know, Ralph Natale from Philly said I sleep like a baby.

And do I like Ralph? He’s all right guy, but I said he’s full of [ __ ] Because I don’t I think if you talk to anybody that’s been in the armed forces, seen action, or anybody from the streets, or a police officer that did shootings, you’re not sleeping. You’re a liar. It’s just not possible. You just you know, because subconsciously there’s guilt and you know, you asked me it seems like I don’t care earlier.

I do care. That’s why I go to therapy all the time. I did get in touch with so you just for information you and the public, I got in touch with tons of my victims. Some would talk to me, some wouldn’t. I cried with some and some I didn’t, but this show is not about how I feel. This is not about my personality of you know, regret.

Nobody wants to hear that because it and at that point it doesn’t mean anything if they do or don’t. It does to me of of the families I need to speak to and the and the families I need to apologize or the families. But again, and I’ll be a liar if I say anything different, I’m still the same guy. So, that means if somebody busted in this room right now and would try to hurt us, you’re still capable.

I’m of course I am. I’ll be a liar if I said I wasn’t. What’s the story that GQ did on you? GQ magazine did a story on you. What what was it about? GQ talked me about I did a Netflix series on And this was just a month ago. Just a couple months ago, yeah. I did a Netflix thing that’s coming out and they spoke to me about that.

It’s about the five families. And this is also about uh Is it Five Families with the author? The the the the same guy that wrote the book Five Families? No. No, okay. Got it. And it’s just the the history of the mob. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s a new book out now actually, Gotti’s boys with Tony DeStefano.

Actually, he you know, I talked to him and I was skimming through the book. I haven’t read it all and it’s pretty good book. So, you know, it’s a different perspective. He speaks about me in some of the book. Pretty accurate? Is it some accurate stories? I read is is some of it’s accurate, some of it’s not.

You know, I I called him on one of them and it’s uh I you know, he was talking about Mark Reiter and I was you know, somebody said because of my age, you know, he doesn’t believe I was with him doing it. And I says to him, “You know what’s funny?” I says and I says listen, you’re never going to get a book completely factual.

I says Mark Reiter, I took him on a run when he went to Disney World. I took him. Mhm. When he went to California, I took him with a woman, Rosemary Fennell. And we helped him get apartments and he went other places. So, when they talk, they don’t really have the facts. And you know, I love that family and I I feel terrible for whatever happened to his life and he lost his son.

And his son was a great friend of mine and you know, they never found the body. And you get guys like my other friend and this is the treachery of life, Keith Pellegrino. Since he’s a kid, he was one of my drug partners. I know him. I got him guys wanted to hurt him. I saved him.

This same guy that stayed with us, knew about Greg’s murder, and never told us and hid it from us and was involved with one of the guys that was involved in his murder. That’s the treachery of the life, and he’s not a tough guy, Keith. Actually, he was a punk. You know, so if it wasn’t for me protecting him, he would end up dead. So, how do you do that to one of our friends? Right? So, this is why I’m saying to kids, get away from this life.

Go play baseball, go to school, go become a lawyer, go become a truck driver, do something legitimately, do what you’re doing, journalism, but don’t end up on the street because there is no true friendships there. And and and I would say, you know, a lot of times people ask me, they say, “Why do you Why do you interview people uh in this world?” And I said, you know, first of all, I the the the the interview community, the mobster community came purely accidental.

Obviously, I grew up with a lot of uh uh the history of it, studying it, you know, the whole Godfathers, you know, it’s a very If you ask any CEO entrepreneur, a lot of people will say one of the most powerful movies you can watch to learn about business, The Godfather. One and two, maybe not three, but you can learn a lot about business.

And it gives different perspectives on what you can do with business. But But if there’s one thing about it is hearing all these different stories and knowing there’s always a power play to be done. And if you are too naive, like you said earlier, and you’re not antici- anticipating next move and making notes of certain people’s behavior in some strange moments, it could catch up to you.

That could happen in business just like it is in your world. The difference is in your world, you could get killed. In the business world, you’re put out of business. Well, you know, I talked earlier about this kid, Frankie, big guy I hurt, right? We’ll use him as an example. I like the guy. It wasn’t personal. The Johnny Carneglia and the Johnny Genie at the time asked me to hurt him over the drug business.

But, the thing is, I liked him, I respected him, he and he was legitimately a tough kid. He was a big kid, 6’5″, whatever. His friends, tough guys, left him. Left him. And they didn’t retaliate with him afterwards. And they didn’t try to Now they’re talking. These same guys had the opportunity, and this is why I’m telling kids not even just one end, the other end.

The guys I even hurt, well, guys, you know, I I respect. I’m trying to say even the guys like that, look what’s going on on to them. Where’s their friends when they needed them? There was a made guy at the time, Jerry Asaro was with him, standing with him, and I told him get lost or I’ll hurt you, too. And he walked. His father just got a basically a life sentence.

Vinnie Asaro, they accused him of being involved with the Latanzas Latanzas stuff and so But, his son So, and his other friend, Frankie, now is in the neighborhood with a big mouth. Where were you when he needed you? Where were you coming out 30 years later when we’re all retired? Where were you when we were all loading guns? And I say that, forget about shooting a gun.

These guys never loaded a gun unless it was a water pistol. So, I’m trying to say the same thing over and over and over again as much as I can. These kids need to understand stay away from this life because they don’t They think just like I did as a kid, and it’s very hard to make them understand. you know, the whole nine, you know, the movie Goodfellas, and you go out and the ladies and, you know, the cars and all that stuff, which a part of it is true.

I mean, when I talk to a lot of these guys, you guys have partied hard, you guys have had a lot of fun. the hottest nightclubs around. I had everything. But, I’m going to tell you, when I sat in that cell alone and it was all over, every one of my friends in that life started ratting on me, all of them.

Like 50 guys, 50-something, actually. They all went to the grand juries on me. You can check with Florida Prosecu- Middle District of Florida and ask them. Because when these conversations started, I think it was 54 was the number, actually, that ratted on me. All these mob made guys ratting on me. When all the money was gone, so was all the women, so was all everybody else, and so was my even my other friends that were from the street that weren’t killers, but they were, you know, playing around on the street with drugs and everything.

There was nobody near me. I was alone in a cell. And I’m going to tell you like I tell everybody, cuz if you’re going to be fake, you can’t talk to kids. And you’re sitting in that cell and you’re crying. And I like when somebody said, “Did you cry?” Yeah, I’m a man, I’m not a robot. Of course I cried.

And they said, “Well, you did this, you did that.” I’m not asking anybody to feel bad for me. I says, “That’s not why I’m saying it. I’m saying it to kids so they understand that this ain’t all about that.” And And when your kids aren’t seeing you, and I didn’t see some of my I have four kids. I didn’t see two of them for 10 years.

Uh you know, so I had disagreements with the mom, and the mom didn’t I’m friends with her now with the reconciliation. She’s remarried. But, this is the reality of the life that the kids got to understand. And when my uncle died, he was like my father. I lived with him in California. I didn’t see him.

I never get to say goodbye to him. And you know, you’re sitting in that cell and you’re crying your eyes out. And there’s times when you’re crying. So, no one is saying to me, “Well, poor you.” Well, [ __ ] you, you know, cuz I know people out there. And I’m not asking anybody to say [ __ ] poor me. I’m not asking anybody.

This is my life. I stood on my two feet, and I got to accept everything. But, the reality of a kid that wants to go on the street is I need to tell you, you’re going to cry. And if you say you’re not, I know tough guys, killers. I mean, killers that ain’t never getting out of jail. And I got a ton of friends that are on the streets, still in jail, and and off the street.

So, people will say, “Well, I seen him with this guy.” I don’t lie and say I don’t know them anymore. A lot of them are my friends still. I just ain’t involved with them anymore. I’ll have lunch with them around the world. I’m talking about gangsters in and out of jails. I got a ton of friends in jails. I got fan guys that that write me on a constant basis.

I says, “I shouldn’t use the word fan.” I says, “Cuz I respect them for writing me from jail, and they tell me we wish we could be man enough to do what you’re doing.” And I said, “Took me a long time to be a man like this. It’s easy doing the other stuff.” I’ll say it over again, easy to shoot and kill.

This is the hard part, to admit all this stuff and try to get convince some kids if you could save one or two. This is a terrible time to want to live that life because you got 300 million cameras everywhere. You got 300 million cameras. Everybody’s doing live. Everything is recorded. Everybody’s walking over the recorder.

It’s a terrible time to do it. But, watch the news, right? And I’m not even talking about gangsters, just criminals. Doing dumb [ __ ] and they know there’s a camera there, and they still do it. And they’re almost saying cheese on the camera, and they’re walking down the I’m saying to you. The Obviously, there’s a lot of fools, but one of the great equalizers, I believe, of getting people to not want to go in that direction of a life is social media.

I think that’s That’s done. Social media and smartphones have changed the game. John, what book are you currently working on that we can share with our audience? If there was one book we could share, which one would it be? Well, it’s This is Susan Pike with me. It’s uh called Darkest Hour. There’s going to be a series, Darkest Hour two and three. Okay.

Uh this was a setup book after Gotti’s Rules cuz I did Gotti’s Rules with George Anastasia. And the setup book, we don’t really talk about my childhood. This is a setup book for two and three. In two and three, I’m going to really get into all these things I’m talking about, shootings. I’m going to get into more.

But, this book, different than the first, Gotti’s Rules, is I’m going to list just like I did names, like I just did now. And I’m going to make sure that there’s going to be people that were there, witnesses. So, somebody wants to contact and see the truthfulness, I guess they could contact them. And then I’m going to do a scorecard of every gangster I mention in that book.

How many armed robberies they did, how many actual shootings they did themselves, what are they about. You’re going to piss off a lot of people if they’re alive. You’re going to piss off a lot of those. Well, It’s going to be interesting for them to come back and say that’s not true. I did this many, I had this many numbers.

If I say Carmine Agnello, I’m going to use him because he had a big mouth, whatever he is. Right? The brother-in-law. Yeah. And he ran to Cleveland, and his courtroom got shut down in a 16-count indictment that does not go away, and I guess somebody could talk to uh Giuliani or something. Yeah. Yeah. Never used a gun in his life.

So, was he going to all of a sudden get balls up and get a gun and come looking for me? So, you know, to me, I’m just going to bring out and let these guys And if you want to do the right thing, maybe you should talk to your kids and tell them the same thing and other kids, let’s not follow this life because I got nothing against any of the kids.

I You know, I hope the kids don’t ever follow us. And I hope my kids do the same. And I’ve had problems with one of my sons. So, you know, the the the reality is, break the cycle. This is a terrible time to want to go that life. Terrible time to want to go that route. Uh John, uh again, thank you for flying out to Dallas to do this sit-down.

We’re going to put the links to both of the books as well as the GQ article. And if you want to find out more about his books or the article, uh go to the link below. We’re going to put every single one of the links on how to find out more about John A. Alite’s book, uh both The Gotti Rules as well as The Darkest Hour.

Once again, thanks for coming out. Thank you, too, Pat. Appreciate you.